Jerusalem, where Jesus is King

December 4, 2012

Many preachers who support dispensationalism try to discredit the idea that Jesus Christ is reigning in the present age, upon the throne of David. But if Jesus is not the promised king who reigns on the throne of David forever, how could Peter say he is the Messiah? If he is not the king of Israel, how can he be the Christ?

When Peter addressed the Jews at Pentecost, as described in Acts 2, he proved from the scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah. Peter claimed David was not speaking of himself when he wrote in Psalm 16:10 that his body would not see corruption; he spoke of Christ. Since Jesus was raised from the dead, and his body did not see corruption, he fullfils the prophecy; therefore he is the Messiah. This was Peter’s point. Jesus is the one foretold in the prophecies. Peter said:

Acts 2:32-36
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Similarly, when Paul addressed the Jews in Antioch, he showed that Jesus is the Christ, because he had been raised up from the grave. [Acts 13:15-41] Paul quoted part of a prophecy of Isaiah, containing the distinctive phrase, “the sure mercies of David.”

Isaiah 55:3-5
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

The prophecy addresses Jerusalem, but not the earthly Jerusalem. It is a continuation of the prophecy in the previous chapter, where the things promised are of a spiritual nature. Jerusalem will be the spouse of the Lord; “For thy Maker is thine husband.” [Isaiah 54:5-7] An everlasting covenant will be established; [vs. 10] her foundations are laid with sapphires; [vs. 11] all her enemies will fall; [vs. 15] no fear or terror will threaten her; [vs. 14] “Every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.” [vs. 17]

These promises apply to the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem described in Rev. 21. There are no sapphires in the foundation of the earthly city, but sapphires and other gems are the foundations of the heavenly one. Compare “behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires” in Isaiah 54:11 with the John’s description of the New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21:19-20
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

The earthly Jerusalem was not secure, when the Roman armies came against it in 70 AD. The Lord did not fight on her behalf. Her enemies did not fall. The Jews fell into judgment, not the Romans. So Isaiah’s prophecy does not apply to the earthly Jerusalem. Instead, all the promises in Isaiah 54-55 apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, where Christ now reigns as king, on the throne of David.

The reasoning employed by Peter and Paul proving Jesus is the Messiah would not make sense, if either of them had said Jesus does not now reign on David’s throne. No statement to that effect is found in the New Testament, but there are strong statements to the contrary. John said, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” [1 John 2:22] Being Christ implies that Jesus is King. Paul wrote: “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.” [2 Tim. 2:12-13]

The reasoning Peter and Paul employed in their speeches to the Jews imply all of the things foretold of the Messiah, apply to Jesus. He has been exulted to a position greater and higher than ruling the earthly Jerusalem. The city where he reigns is in heaven. Mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up, as Isaiah foretold, when Jesus ascended to heaven. Isaiah’s prophecy in Isaiah 2:1-3 was fulfilled in the first century when Jesus inherited a heavenly throne.

The theory of a future, earthly millennial reign of Christ, which denies that he reigns in the present age, is demeaning to his high office. It exults the flesh, and Abraham’s natural descendants.

Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [John 3:3] He further explained, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” [vs. 8]

The kingdom of God is spiritual, and eternal. Jesus discounted the idea that he would reign in a visible kingdom, in the earthly Jerusalem, when he said to the Samaritan woman, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.” [John 4:21]

The fact that Christ is the king who reigns among his saints is the basis for Peter’s statement that they are a “royal priesthood.” [1 Peter 2:9] Paul spoke of Christ’s kingdom as a kingdom of light. God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” [Col. 1:13]

The earthly Jerusalem was but a shadow of a spiritual one, prepared by God in heaven. If the promises and prophecies about Jerusalem apply to the earthly city, why was it destroyed by the Romans? Why did God decline to defend it?

The heavenly city is the one Christ defends. He is a wall of fire around her, and the glory in the midst of her. [Zech. 2:5] The heavenly city is “the apple of his eye.” [vs. 8]

Theories and interpretations claiming Jesus does not reign as king among his saints, when that is an essential component in his being “made Christ,” are among the spiritual enemies that assault the holy city of the saints. Such opinions are among the armies that gather against Jerusalem in Zechariah 12:2 and 14.2. Paul said that the saints “wrestle not with flesh and blood.” [Eph. 6:12]

Jesus said:

Matthew 6:22-23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Jesus refers to eyes in a spiritual sense, as he did when he spoke of the blindness of the scribes and Pharisees. They were spiritually blind because of their man-made traditions.

The eyes of those who come against the holy city are affected by the plague with which Zechariah said God will smite those who fight at Jerusalem. “And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.” [Zech. 14:12]

The eyes of men being consumed in their holes is a metaphor, depicting their inability to understand spiritual things. The tongue represents their words or speech. Prophecies that provide spiritual enlightenment tend to become nonsense when taken literally.

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  1. jerryshugart
    December 4, 2012 at 11:15 am

    In the article we read:

    “These promises apply to the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem described in Rev. 21.”

    Yes, and of course in the heavenly Jerusalem there is no sun or moon:

    “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof” (Rev.21:23).

    However, there will be a sun and a moon in the place where the Lord Jesus will reign as king:

    “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously” (Isa.24:23).

    The Lord Jesus will reign as king on His earthly throne and He will not begin to reign until He returns to earth, as witnessed by His own words:

    ” When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” (Mt.25:31).

  2. December 4, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    Thanks for providing another example of the woodenly literalist thinking that is characteristic of dispensationalism.

    The sun clothes the woman in Rev. 12:1, who represents the church. But in Rev. 6:12 John described the sun becoming black as sackcloth of hair. This depicts the effect of doctrines that obscure the Gospel, and the present glory of Christ, who is Lord of all.

    The church’s beliefs have often strayed far from the truth. Christ has sent teachers to guide the saints to a better understanding, but J. N. Darby was not one of them. He and his followers were among those whose doctrines tend to blacken and obscure the sun that clothes the woman. Or in another metaphor, that Ezekiel uses, muddy the waters that the sheep have to drink.

    Ezekiel 34:19
    And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

    Dispensationalism obscures the truth that Jesus reigns now on the throne of David, like a thick, dark, gloomy, fog and a cloud that hides the sun.

    Christ reigns over all and among his saints; believing this is walking in the light; denying it is darkness and ignorance.

  3. jerryshugart
    December 4, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Doug, you said:

    “Dispensationalism obscures the truth that Jesus reigns now on the throne of David, like a thick, dark, gloomy, fog and a cloud that hides the sun.”

    It is your dark mind that refuses to believe the truth that the Lord Jesus is not ruling as King at the present time. Of course all things have been put in subjection over Him but NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM:

    “Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him” (Heb.2:8).

    All things will not be put under Him until He returns to earth to reign as king from the throne of David. Here is God’s promise to David in regard to that throne:

    “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever” (2 Sam.7:16).

    First we know that the throne of David is an earthly kingdom because Solomon sat upon that throne on the earth. Second, we know that that that earthly throne be established “for ever.” We also know that God will not alter His promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    Despite all this evidence from the Scriptures if you are right then we must believe that God lied to David because according to your dark view the throne of David ceased to exist at one time and therefore cannot be described as being established for ever.

    Secondly, despite the fact that God said that He would not alter the promises which He made to David you say that He altered the throne from being an earthly one to being a heavenly one.

    Christ has sent teachers to guide the saints to a better understanding, but you are not one of them. Your teaching makes God out to be a liar who broke His promises.

  4. December 5, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “Dispensationalism obscures the truth that Jesus reigns now on the throne of David, like a thick, dark, gloomy, fog and a cloud that hides the sun.”

    It is your dark mind that refuses to believe the truth that the Lord Jesus is not ruling as King at the present time. Of course all things have been put in subjection over Him but NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM:

    “Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him” (Heb.2:8).

    Jesus reigns as king in the church, which is called the heavenly Jerusalem in Heb. 12:22. He also reigns over all things, in God’s throne, which is a far greater authority than any earthly power, whether in Jerusalem, or any other earthly city.

    Jesus is the source of spiritual enlightenment to the church, and he is also over every secular power. Paul taught:

    Romans 13:3-5
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    Dispensationalism says that when Jews rejected Christ, he postponed his kingdom. But they misunderstand; Christ’s kingdom was given to him by God, not by the Jews. And every Jew who rejects him as the promised king anointed by God is broken off from Israel, like a branch from a tree. Believers from the Gentiles are branches that are grafted in.

    Isaiah 9:6-7
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    The above prophecy causes embarrassment for dispensationalism, because they feel that they need to somehow insert a 2000 year plus gap. But as Jesus is already “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace,” he also has the government, and the throne of David, and a kingdom.

    All things will not be put under Him until He returns to earth to reign as king from the throne of David.

    That can’t be true, as Jesus said to his disciples, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” [Matt. 28:18]

    Jesus has already been given all power.

    If dispensationalists and others deny it, perhaps it is because they are blind like unbelieving Jews.

    Here is God’s promise to David in regard to that throne:

    “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever” (2 Sam.7:16).

    Isaiah 9:7 says that the throne of David is given to Jesus “from henceforth even for ever.” He was born a king. When he was brought before Pilate, Jesus said he was a king, that to be king of the Jews was the reason he was born. He wore the label, king of the Jews, when he died on the cross. After his death for the sins of the world he was raised up from the grave. He was given authority and power over all things in heaven and in earth. He ascended to heaven, to the throne of God. He is now building his spiritual temple, which is the church.

    First we know that the throne of David is an earthly kingdom because Solomon sat upon that throne on the earth. Second, we know that that that earthly throne be established “for ever.”

    David and Solomon were kings who ruled over Israel in Jerusalem; their reigns were types of the reign of Christ in the present era. David thought that to build a house for the Lord would be a good idea, and God said he would build David’s house, and establish his throne forever. This was a prophecy about Christ’s eternal kingdom. Solomon built the first temple. His reign was characterized by peace, and in his days, Israel was united in one kingdom. He was famous for his wealth and wisdom. Christ, being the light of the world, is also the source of wisdom and knowledge to mankind.

    We also know that God will not alter His promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    Despite all this evidence from the Scriptures if you are right then we must believe that God lied to David because according to your dark view the throne of David ceased to exist at one time and therefore cannot be described as being established for ever.

    The woodenly literal approach of dispensationalism insists on “dumbing down” the word of God, as if the way God communicates were simplistic.

    Secondly, despite the fact that God said that He would not alter the promises which He made to David you say that He altered the throne from being an earthly one to being a heavenly one.

    Christ has sent teachers to guide the saints to a better understanding, but you are not one of them. Your teaching makes God out to be a liar who broke His promises.

    Isaiah said the “mountain of the Lord’s house” will be established in the top of the mountains. [Isa. 2:2] This “mountain” is a promise, the promise of a Messiah. He was raised up, above the hills, to heaven and God’s throne. And so Christ’s throne was raised up to heaven too.

  5. jerryshugart
    December 6, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Doug, you said:

    “The woodenly literal approach of dispensationalism insists on “dumbing down” the word of God, as if the way God communicates were simplistic.”

    It is your approach that is a disgrace to all things of God. According to your dark ideas God said that He would not “alter” the promises which He made to David but we certainly should not believe Him because it is a crime to believe the Lord’s literal words.. Of course those like you with a heart of disbelief will not believe anything in the Bible if it contradicts your petty ideas.

    Of course you just IGNORE any verse which does not match your outrageous ideas, as you did this one:

    “Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM” (Heb.2:8).

    BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM!!!

    Your non-literal approach was designed for one purpose–to deceive others into believing that the man of sin has already come and gone:

    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (2 Thess.2:3).

    You will be responsible for the sad time when many people begin to worship the anti-christ, and many of those people will say, The anti-christ has already come so this man cannot be him!

    As I said before, I would not want to be in your shoes at the judgment seat of Christ.

  6. December 7, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “The woodenly literal approach of dispensationalism insists on “dumbing down” the word of God, as if the way God communicates were simplistic.”

    It is your approach that is a disgrace to all things of God. According to your dark ideas God said that He would not “alter” the promises which He made to David but we certainly should not believe Him because it is a crime to believe the Lord’s literal words.. Of course those like you with a heart of disbelief will not believe anything in the Bible if it contradicts your petty ideas.

    How is believing that Jesus reigns over all, and in the throne of David a “petty idea”?

    It is a wonderfully liberating idea, I think.

    Paul said,

    Romans 8:28
    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    How can “all things” work together for good, unless God reigns over all, and among his saints?

    The throne of David represents his reign in the church. Jesus said, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;” [Rev. 3:7] What can the key of David mean unless it is to reign in David’s place, as king in Jerusalem? It is the Jerusalem above, of course. Why else would the church be identified as Jerusalem?

    The key of David in Rev. 3:7 alludes to Isaiah 22:21-22, which says “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” Government is mentioned here. Also the role of a father. These apply to Jesus in the present age of the church. He is also king and high priest to believers.

    Of course you just IGNORE any verse which does not match your outrageous ideas, as you did this one:

    “Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM” (Heb.2:8).

    BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM!!!

    Quite right. He is not recognized as king by all. Many in the church are deceived.

    But look at some things that Daniel wrote.

    Daniel 4:17
    This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

    Daniel 4:25
    … seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    Daniel 4:32
    … until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    Daniel 5:21
    … his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

    Daniel 7:9-10
    I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    Daniel 7:13-14
    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Daniel 7:27
    And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    The context of these scriptures is within the period from Nebuchadnezzar to the present. Christ is the one described in Dan. 7:9, as we can see by comparing the description with the one John gave in Rev. 1. So, clearly Jesus reigns!

    Your non-literal approach was designed for one purpose–to deceive others into believing that the man of sin has already come and gone:

    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (2 Thess.2:3).

    You will be responsible for the sad time when many people begin to worship the anti-christ, and many of those people will say, The anti-christ has already come so this man cannot be him!

    As I said before, I would not want to be in your shoes at the judgment seat of Christ.

    Just as God reigns throughout the history of man, there is opposition to him, and this is represented, in the era of the church, by the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, also known as the antichrist. It is not a single human individual any more than it is a literal horn on an unusual looking monster. Notice what is said of it.

    Daniel 7:8
    I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Daniel 7:19-21
    Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
    And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    Daniel 7:24-25
    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    The horn “made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.” It was not numbered with the ten horns, but came up among them. The ten horns are kings or kingdoms that came from the Roman Empire. The little horn has “eyes like the eyes of a man,” and so it represents a human point of view. It speaks against the Most high, so it is also religious in nature.

    John identified the antichrist with a spirit. He said:

    1 John 4:3
    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    He also spoke of “many antichrists.”
    1 John 2:18
    Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    The antichrist spirit has been present from John’s time to now. The “time, times and a half” of Dan. 7:25 is a symbol of the whole age of the church, the last half of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.

  7. jerryshugart
    December 9, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Doug, you asked:

    “How is believing that Jesus reigns over all, and in the throne of David a “petty idea”?”

    The idea that the Lord Jesus is now ruling from His own throne is a petty idea because now He is not sitting at His own throne but instead the throne of His Father:

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne” (Rev.3:21).

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne,the “throne of David,” but instead is sitting in His Father’s throne!

    But you once again refuse to use your brain and can somehow trick your mind into believing that despite the fact that the Lord Jesus distinguishes between His throne and the Father’s throne they are one and the same!!!

    The following verses outlines what will happen to bring the Lord Jesus back to the earth to rule from the throne of David:

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule Thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Ps.110:1,2).

    The Lord Jesus will remain at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes the Lord Jesus’ enemies his footstool. And in the same Psalms we are told exactly how the enemies of the Lord Jesus will be made His footstool:

    “The Lord at Thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries” (Ps.110:5,6).

    The Father will send the Son to earth to strike through kings in the day of His wrath. The Father will send Jesus back to the earth so that He can “rule” in the “midst of” His enemies:

    “The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies” (Ps.110:2).

    One of the meanings of the Hebrew word (matteh) translated “rod” is “a rod, a staff…Specially used of the rod of a king, a sceptre, Ps.110:2”.

    The Lord Jesus will “rule” in “the midst” of His enemies. He cannot do that as long as He remains sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    However, at the present time all things are not put under Him:

    “But now we see not yet all things put under him” (Heb.2:8)..

  8. December 9, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you asked:

    “How is believing that Jesus reigns over all, and in the throne of David a “petty idea”?”

    The idea that the Lord Jesus is now ruling from His own throne is a petty idea because now He is not sitting at His own throne but instead the throne of His Father:

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne” (Rev.3:21).

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne,the “throne of David,” but instead is sitting in His Father’s throne!

    You seem to think highly of this argument as you keep repeating it. But what is the difference between Christ’s throne, and the Father’s? Rev.3:21 indicates that the relation between Christ and the Father is like the relation between those who overcome, and Christ. They sit with him in his throne. And Christ sits at the Father’s right hand, which means he does the work of the Father, and his will. Similarly those who overcome do the will of Christ. This promise is fulfilled in the present age, as we can see from the works of the apostles. By the power of Christ they performed miracles of healing, preached the Gospel to the world, witnessed before kings, wrote Scripture, and prophesied.

    But you once again refuse to use your brain and can somehow trick your mind into believing that despite the fact that the Lord Jesus distinguishes between His throne and the Father’s throne they are one and the same!!!

    Scripture says heaven is God’s throne, earth his footstool..

    Isaiah 66:1
    Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

    This is also stated in Matt. 5:34 and Acts 7:49.

    The Lord also dwells in his temple, the church.

    Psalm 11:4
    The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD’s throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

    Dispensationalism tries to degrade the throne of Jesus, putting it in his footstool.

    The following verses outlines what will happen to bring the Lord Jesus back to the earth to rule from the throne of David:

    Psalm 48:2
    Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

    The phrase “on the sides of the north” applies to heaven in other scriptures. The earthly city is not the joy of the whole earth, or the city of the great King; the heavenly one is.

    Mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up, and established in the top of the mountains, in heaven, as Isaiah foretold in Isa. 2:1-2, when Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection, where he was “made Christ.” This means he was given the throne of David as promised. Prophecy shows Jesus was the king of Jerusalem:

    Zechariah 9:9
    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

    This prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. [Matt. 21:5] Isaiah’s prophecy that the mountain of the Lord’s house would be established in the top of the mountains shows there is a continuity between OT Jerusalem and the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule Thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Ps.110:1,2).

    The Lord Jesus will remain at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes the Lord Jesus’ enemies his footstool. And in the same Psalms we are told exactly how the enemies of the Lord Jesus will be made His footstool:

    “The Lord at Thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries” (Ps.110:5,6).

    The Father will send the Son to earth to strike through kings in the day of His wrath. The Father will send Jesus back to the earth so that He can “rule” in the “midst of” His enemies:

    “The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies” (Ps.110:2).

    One of the meanings of the Hebrew word (matteh) translated “rod” is “a rod, a staff…Specially used of the rod of a king, a sceptre, Ps.110:2″.

    The Lord Jesus will “rule” in “the midst” of His enemies. He cannot do that as long as He remains sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    You assume too much.

    Isaiah 11:4
    But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    However, at the present time all things are not put under Him:

    “But now we see not yet all things put under him” (Heb.2:8)..

    Dispensationalism is among the enemies yet to be put under him.

  9. jerryshugart
    December 10, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Doug, you said:

    “Rev.3:21 indicates that the relation between Christ and the Father is like the relation between those who overcome, and Christ. They sit with him in his throne.”

    If the overcomers will sit with the lord Jesus in His supposedly heavenly throne then how will they reign on the earth?:

    “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH” (Rev.5:10).

    As usual with your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that we are to be sitting on a so-called heavenly throne of the Lord Jesus but at the same time we are going to be reigning on the earth! According to your discredited ideas we are going to be two places at once!

    You also quoted the following passage:

    “Isaiah 11:4
    But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”

    Yes, that is what will happen with the earthly kingdom in view. But no one who will use their brain will assert that the kingdom is now on earth and the Father’s will is being done on the earth as it is in heaven:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth” (Lk.11:2).

    Paul describes the present age as being an evil one so if you are right and the Lord Jesus is now reigning over the earth then His reign can only be described as an evil one:

    “Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father” (Gal.1:4).

    The OT prophecies reveal that the kingdom of the Lord Jesus will be one of peace and love but if you are right it is an evil age!!!

    Of course you have proven over and over that you will believe and teach anything, no matter how ridiculous.

  10. December 10, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “Rev.3:21 indicates that the relation between Christ and the Father is like the relation between those who overcome, and Christ. They sit with him in his throne.”

    If the overcomers will sit with the lord Jesus in His supposedly heavenly throne then how will they reign on the earth?:

    “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH” (Rev.5:10).

    As usual with your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that we are to be sitting on a so-called heavenly throne of the Lord Jesus but at the same time we are going to be reigning on the earth! According to your discredited ideas we are going to be two places at once!

    A fundamental idea in Paul’s theology is that believers are “in Christ.” His argument that Gentile Christians should not be compelled to be circumcised is based on this. They are already circumcised in a spiritual sense, in Christ. It is a circumcision made without hands. Not only are they circumcised in him, he said, but they have died with him, and are buried with him, and are raised again with him.

    Colossians 2:10-12
    And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Being raised with Christ meant they are now “in Christ.” They walk in newness of life, they are a new creation. And because they are in Christ, they are “dead to the law.” He wrote, “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [Rom. 7:4]

    Being married to Christ, the saints are “members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” [Eph. 5:30] Since Christ sits in the throne of his Father in heaven, Christians also “sit together in heavenly places.” Paul wrote: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” [Eph. 2:4-7]

    You also quoted the following passage:

    “Isaiah 11:4
    But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”

    Yes, that is what will happen with the earthly kingdom in view. But no one who will use their brain will assert that the kingdom is now on earth and the Father’s will is being done on the earth as it is in heaven:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth” (Lk.11:2).

    The meaning of “heavenly places” in prophecy is not necessarily referring to physical altitude, but to their spiritual status, as those who have been made holy. Paul said the saints are “translated” into Christ’s kingdom of light. [Col. 1:13] But he also said, that understanding the glory and power of Christ was a gift from God. It requires spiritual enlightenment, that men do not possess naturally. So when dispensationalists sneer at the idea that Christ reigns over all, in heaven and in earth, they merely express carnal, unenlightened human opinions.

    Paul said “the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” [Rom. 8:7] Perhaps this principle underlies Zechariah’s prophecy that Jerusalem will be “a burdensome stone for all people.” [Zech. 12:3] Jerusalem is the heavenly city, which was raised up as Isaiah foretold when Jesus ascended to the throne of his Father. [Isa. 2:1-2; Heb. 12:22] It is “a burdensome stone for all people. [Zech. 12:3] This is the city Christ defends. [Zech. 12:8] He fights against the nations that come against it. [Zech. 12:9; 14:3] Jesus promised that the Spirit or Comforter he would send will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” [John 16:7] He judges and makes war against spiritual enemies, no doubt including delusions like dispensationalism. [Rev. 19:11]

    Paul describes the present age as being an evil one so if you are right and the Lord Jesus is now reigning over the earth then His reign can only be described as an evil one:

    Paul said Jesus has all power and is set over every principality, and power, and might, and dominion both in this world, and in the one to come. He said he prayed for the Believers at Ephesus, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.” [Eph. 1:17-21]

    Only those who are enlightened by God can understand the power of Jesus. He also has the power to send plagues of blindness upon his enemies. [Zech. 14:12] Enlightenment does not come from dispensationalism, or from John N. Darby, but from Christ.

    “Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father” (Gal.1:4).

    Dispensationalism and Zionism are of this world, and contribute to its evils.

    The OT prophecies reveal that the kingdom of the Lord Jesus will be one of peace and love but if you are right it is an evil age!!!

    Of course you have proven over and over that you will believe and teach anything, no matter how ridiculous.

  11. January 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    The key to understanding the thousand year reign is in Rev 12

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    “Now is come salvation” The dragon was “cast out” at the beginning of the thousand year reign. This happened at the cross. Salvation came at the cross when Satan was cast out.

    Thousand is a metaphor here’s a prime example of it being used elswhere as a metaphor:

    Psa_105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

    Satan is released from the bottomless pit at the end of the thousand years, this is now. The bottomless pit is the the trumpet judgements which are false teachers, false doctrine, infiltrating the church.

    Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

    two hundred thousand thousand false teachers, compassing Jerusalem.

    Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
    Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
    Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

  12. January 7, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    PS the two witnesses are the royal priesthood, ruling and reigning with Christ. The two witnesses are type and shadows of Joshua *high priest) and Zerubabbel (governer of the line of David) The two witnesses lead the modern spiritual Israelite out of spiritual babylon as they build New Jerusalem not by power not by might but by my spirit.

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