Home > Book of Hebrews, Book of Isaiah, Dispensationalism, Heavenly Jerusalem, Literalism, The Gospel > Isaiah 2:2 and dispensationalism: a dilemma

Isaiah 2:2 and dispensationalism: a dilemma

November 23, 2012

In their interpretations of Isaiah 2:2, the prophecy that the mountain of the Lord’s house will be established at the top of the mountains, above the hills, dispensationalist commentators and expositors are torn between their commitment to their mantra of literalism, and their devotion to the idea that ethnic Jews will dominate other nations in the Millennium. The literal view says the prophecy means that mount Zion and Jerusalem will be literally raised up, by tectonic means. Contrasting with this approach is the interpretation of mountains as nations, which leads to the concept of Jews becoming a kind of master-race.

Commenting on Isaiah 2:2, dispensationalist John A. Martin wrote: [1]

Here Isaiah was foretelling the future of Jerusalem and Judah. In the prophecies of restoration which are prominent in Isaiah’s book, he was not specific as to the exact time when they would be fulfilled (perhaps he did not know; cf. 1 Peter 1:10-11). Here he simply said in the last days. Other Bible passages make it clear that these predictions will be fulfilled in the Millennium, Christ’s 1,000-year reign on the earth. Because of God’s covenant promises to Abraham, Moses, and David, Isaiah knew that Israel will again be in the land and will again have a superior position among the nations.

The mountain of the Lord’s temple refers to the mount where the temple was built (and where the millennial temple will be built, Ezek. 40-43). Often in the Scriptures mountains denote governmental authorities (Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1). Here God’s rule from the temple will be preeminent (chief). The theme of the prominence of the temple mount in Jerusalem is repeated often in Isaiah’s prophecies all the way to the end of the book (Isa. 11:9; 25:6-7; 27:13; 30:29; 56:7; 57:13; 65:11, 25; 66:20). Isaiah clearly wanted his readers to be aware that God will protect His covenant nation despite their spiritual insensitivity and even though they would go into captivity.

Similarly dispensationalist commentator David Guzik imagined Jews becoming the “superpower” of the world. He wrote: [2]

In the latter days: In context, the term latter days refers to the “time of the Messiah,” when the Anointed of the LORD reigns over the earth. This speaks of the time many refer to as the millennium, the thousand-year reign of Jesus on this earth (Psalm 72, Isaiah 11:4-9, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Luke 1:32-33 and 19:12-27, Matthew 5:18).

The mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it: During the millennium, Israel will be the “superpower” of the world. It will be the leading nation in all the earth, and the center of Israel will be the mountain of the LORD’s house – the temple mount, which will be the “capital” of the government of the Messiah. All nations shall flow to the “capital” of the government of Jesus.

Dispensationalists invoke literalism to argue that the church is not referred to in prophecy as Judah or Jerusalem or Israel. But John A. Martin and David Guzik and others evidently have no qualms about abandoning the literal approach and adopting a figurative interpretation when it suits their prejudice, and when it affords an opportunity to prop up their dreams of Jews becoming a “superpower.”

Thomas L. Constable considered the more literal approach, but leaned towards a figurative interpretation. He wrote: [3]

The term “mountain” is sometimes a symbol of a kingdom, nation, authority, or rule elsewhere in the prophetic writings (e.g., Dan. 2:35, 44- 45; Amos 4:1; Rev. 17:9-11). The ancients also regarded mountains as the homes of the gods. If Isaiah was using “mountain” as a figure of speech, he meant that Israel and her God would be the most highly exalted in the earth eventually. This will be the case during Messiah’s earthly reign. The reference to “the mountain of the house of Yahweh” (v. 2), however, may indicate that the prophet had a more literal meaning in mind. He may have meant that the actual mountain on which the temple stood would be thrust higher in elevation. This may happen (cf. Ezek. 40:2; Zech. 14:4, 10), but the primary implication seems to be that Israel and Yahweh will be exalted in the world.

Karl Marti (1855-1925), a German critical scholar, interpreted the prophecy as saying the house of God will be on the highest of the mountains, and protrude beyond the hills, or in other words, Jerusalem and mount Zion must be tectonically lifted up, not only politically and religiously. [4]

Similar literal views were ascribed to Jewish Rabbis in a work by Petrus Galatinus (1460 – c. 1539), an Italian franciscan Friar Minor, in de Arcani Catholicce Veritatis, a book that plagiarized the earlier work of  Spanish dominican Raymundus Martini (c. 1210-1285), author of Pugio Fidei adversus Mauros et Judaeos  (1278).

John H. Sailhamer, professor of Old Testament studies at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary in California, favoured the idea that a literal elevation of Jerusalem was meant. He wrote: [5]

Isaiah’s visions of the future looked to a time when the Davidic kingship and the Messiah would reign over that kingdom and rule all the nations of the world. In other words, they look to a time that fits remarkably well with John’s vision of the earthly reign of Christ in Revelation 20. Taken at face value Isaiah’s visions appear to speak of a literal fulfillment in Jerusalem itself and thus are not easily pressed into a reference to the establishment of the church.

Sailhamer alludes to the idea that Isaiah’s prophecy is referring to Christ and the church, and the mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22. Princeton scholar Joseph Addison Alexander (1809-1860) supported this approach. He wrote: [6]

The prophecy begins with an abrupt prediction of the exaltation of the church, the confluence of nations to it, and a general pacification as the consequence, vs. 2-4. In this verse the Prophet sees the church permanently placed in a conspicuous position, so as to be a source of attraction to surrounding nations. To express this idea, he makes use of terms which are strictly applicable only to the local habitation of the church under the old economy. Instead of saying, in modern phraseology, that the church, as a society, shall become conspicuous and attract all nations, he represents the mountain upon which the temple stood as being raised and fixed above the other mountains, so as to be visible in all directions. And it shall be (happen, come to pass, a prefatory formula of constant use in prophecy) in the end (or latter part) of the days (i. e. hereafter) the mountain of Jehovah’s house (i. e. mount Zion, in the widest sense, including mount Moriah where the temple stood) shall be established (permanently fixed) in the head of the mountains (i. e. above them), and exalted from (away from and by implication more than or higher than) the hills (a poetical equivalent to mountains), and the nations shall flow unto it. It was not to be established on the top of the mountains, but either at the head or simply high among the mountains, which idea is expressed by other words in the parallel clause, and by the same words in 1 Kings 21:10, 12. The verb in the last clause is always used to signify a confluence of nations.

James Burton Coffman (1905-2006) wrote: [7]

Jehovah’s house shall be established
This is not a reference to the Jewish temple, but to the Church of Jesus Christ. As an apostle expressed it, addressing a faithful church, Ye are the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16). Other passages that identify God’s house are Heb. 12:18-23 and 1 Tim. 3:5.

Hebrews 12:22, “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,” implies that Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled, when Jesus ascended to the throne of his Father. The mountains of prophecy are symbolic of the promises of God. This was revealed in Genesis 49:26, when Jacob blessed Joseph, and said this blessings extended “unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills.” In Hebrews 12:22-24, the elements of the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are restated in a Christian context as shown in the table below.

Hebrews 12:22-24 Promises to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob
The land

ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem
Abraham: Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee [Genesis 12:1]

Abraham: And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. … Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. [Genesis 13:14-15, 17]

Abraham: Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates [Genesis 15:18]

Isaac: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee [Genesis 26:4]

Jacob: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed [Genesis 28:13]
The nation

the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven
Abraham: I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing [Genesis 12:2]

Abraham: I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. [Genesis 13:16]

Abraham: Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. [Genesis 15:5]

Abraham: I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore [Genesis 22:17]

Isaac: I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven [Genesis 26:4]

Jacob: thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south [Genesis 28:14]
The seed

to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
Abraham: in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. [Genesis 12:3]

Abraham: in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed [Genesis 22:18]

Isaac: in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed [Genesis 26:4]

Jacob: in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed [Genesis 28:14]

References

1. John A. Martin. In: The Bible Knowledge Commentary: Old Testament. John Walvoord, ed. 1983. p. 1037.

2. David Guzik’s Commentaries on the Bible

3. Dr. Constable’s Notes on Isaiah. 2012 Edition. p. 17.

4. K. Marti. Das Buch Jesaja (1900).

5. John H. Sailhamer. Biblical Prophecy

6. Joseph Addison Alexander. Isaiah Translated and Explained.

7. Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

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  1. jerryshugart
    November 23, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    In the article we read:

    “Sailhamer alludes to the idea that Isaiah’s prophecy is referring to Christ and the church, and the mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22.”

    That is ridiculous, especially when we read the following from the context of Isaiah”

    “for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa.2:3).

    The Law has been done away during the present dispensation so it is impossible that this is speaking of the Body of Christ. Also, it is ridiculous to suppose that the following from the next verse is referring to the things in regard to the present “dispensation of grace” or the “heavenly Jerusalem”:

    “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isa.2:4).

    There are no “nations” in the heavenly Jerusalem since the concept of a “nation” is entirely dependent on territory. At the present time the Lord Jesus is not judging anyone so the words “He shall judge among the nations” cannot possibly be in reference to the present dispensation:

    “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I JUDGE HIM NOT: for I CAME NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to save the world” (Jn.12:47).

    Today we have been given the ministry to reconciliation and today the Lord is not imputing the sins of unbelievers unto them:

    “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESSPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Cor.5:19).

    The things seen at at Isaiah 2:1-4 cannot possibly be in regard to the present dispensation of grace or to the Body of Christ.

  2. November 24, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    jerryshugart :

    In the article we read:

    “Sailhamer alludes to the idea that Isaiah’s prophecy is referring to Christ and the church, and the mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22.”

    That is ridiculous, especially when we read the following from the context of Isaiah”

    “for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa.2:3).

    Paul taught that the law was a “schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.” He also wrote:

    Romans 8:3-5
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    The Law has been done away during the present dispensation so it is impossible that this is speaking of the Body of Christ.

    Jesus said,

    Matthew 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    One needs to take a balanced approach to the question, and consider all the related scriptures. An attitude of “dumbing down” the teachings of scripture will lead to error. The apostle Paul said that for those in Christ, the law has no power over them, but he also wrote, “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” [2 Tim. 2:19]

    Also, it is ridiculous to suppose that the following from the next verse is referring to the things in regard to the present “dispensation of grace” or the “heavenly Jerusalem”:

    “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isa.2:4).

    Those who believe in Christ are called “peacemakers.” Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” [Matt. 5:9]

    There are no “nations” in the heavenly Jerusalem since the concept of a “nation” is entirely dependent on territory. At the present time the Lord Jesus is not judging anyone so the words “He shall judge among the nations” cannot possibly be in reference to the present dispensation:

    Again, you contradict the scriptures, as, Jesus himself said, “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.” [John 5:22-23] Also, “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” [vs. 26-27]

    Paul wrote to the Corinthians,

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13
    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    Jesus reigns over all, and is the head of the church, and king on the throne of David! He rules the nations with a “rod of iron.” He is the man-child in Rev. 12:5, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

    “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I JUDGE HIM NOT: for I CAME NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to save the world” (Jn.12:47).

    Today we have been given the ministry to reconciliation and today the Lord is not imputing the sins of unbelievers unto them:

    “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESSPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Cor.5:19).

    The things seen at at Isaiah 2:1-4 cannot possibly be in regard to the present dispensation of grace or to the Body of Christ.

    Isaiah 2:1-4 applies to the church, which is the heavenly Jerusalem. The author of Hebrews said, “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” [Heb. 12:22] Mount Zion is called the place of God’s rest. “For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.” [Psa. 132:13-14]

    Paul said,

    1 Corinthians 3:16-17
    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Just as the temple was founded on mount Zion, those who believe in Christ have mount Zion as their foundation; Paul said,

    1 Corinthians 3
    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The words of scripture are like rock, but theories such as dispensationalism are “winds of doctrine” and they are changeable. We all should take care that we do not build with chaff or some similar material that will become fuel for the fire.

  3. jerryshugart
    November 24, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Doug, you said:

    “One needs to take a balanced approach to the question, and consider all the related scriptures.”

    It is funny that you speak of “all the related scriptures” in regard to “the law” but then you ignore the one passage that demonstrates that the Gentiles were never given the law:

    “For when THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves” (Ro.2:14).

    Anyone in their right mind knows that the following verse does not refer to the Body of Christ because most of those in the body of Christ “have not the law”:

    “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa.2:3).

    You want to apply practically all of the prophecies in regard to Israel as being fulfilled in the heavenly sphere and to you “the land of Israel” and the “land God gave Jacob” and the “throne of David” which Solomon sat on are all heavenly in nature.

    You prove over and over that you are willing to throw your reason to the wind because you are determined to cling to the discredited ideas which are not of God.

  4. November 24, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “One needs to take a balanced approach to the question, and consider all the related scriptures.”

    It is funny that you speak of “all the related scriptures” in regard to “the law” but then you ignore the one passage that demonstrates that the Gentiles were never given the law:

    “For when THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves” (Ro.2:14).

    Anyone in their right mind knows that the following verse does not refer to the Body of Christ because most of those in the body of Christ “have not the law”:

    “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa.2:3).

    Interpreting “law” in wooden, literal sense, in this prophecy is a fine example of the “dumbing down” approach to prophecy employed by dispensationalists. An intelligent reader will realize that where “the law” is associated with “the word of the Lord,” it is not limited to the ritualistic Mosaic legislation. It includes the whole of God’s revelation, including the “law of Christ,” [Gal. 6:2] and the Gospel. The law of Moses commands Israel to listen to the one who was to come, who was Jesus Christ. It is utterly foolish to say such a law has been “done away.”

    Consider the following comments by E. W. Hengstenberg on Micah 4:1 in his Christology of the Old Testament, Volume 1., pp. 440-441:

    —But by what means is the exaltation of the temple-mountain to be effected? Cocceius has already directed attention to the circumstance, that it must not be supposed to consist in the flowing of the people unto it; for that is not the cause, but the effect. We find the correct answer in ver. 2: “The law goeth forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem;” and in ver. 7: “And the Lord will be king over them on Mount Zion.” The exaltation will, accordingly, be effected by a glorious manifestation of the Lord within His congregation; in consequence of which, Zion becomes the centre of the whole earth. That this manifestation is to take place in Christ, is brought out only subsequently; compare especially, v. 1, 3 (2-4). A parallel passage is also Ezek. xl. 2, where Mount Zion is likewise seen exalted in the Messianic time.

    You want to apply practically all of the prophecies in regard to Israel as being fulfilled in the heavenly sphere and to you “the land of Israel” and the “land God gave Jacob” and the “throne of David” which Solomon sat on are all heavenly in nature.

    You prove over and over that you are willing to throw your reason to the wind because you are determined to cling to the discredited ideas which are not of God.

    Prophecies about Israel and Jerusalem and the land of Canaan and the throne of David, etc., applied to the earthly things, until Christ ascended to heaven, after his resurrection from the dead, when mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up in a spiritual sense. The earthly things were shadows and types of the spiritual things, and the “better country.” [Heb. 11:16]

  5. jerryshugart
    November 25, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    Doug, you said:

    “Prophecies about Israel and Jerusalem and the land of Canaan and the throne of David, etc., applied to the earthly things, until Christ ascended to heaven, after his resurrection from the dead, when mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up in a spiritual sense.”

    According to you the throne of David changed from being an earthly throne unto being a heavenly one. You give no evidence that that is true so we must believe it because you say that it is true.

    However, on the other hand, you continue to ignore the evidence that demonstrates that you are wrong. Let us look at the promise God made to David through Nathan:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    The throne spoken of here is the throne of David and it is an earthly throne because Solomon sat upon that throne on the earth (1 Ki.2:12).

    Since the promise to David from God says that that earthly throne will be ESTABLISHED FOR EVER then it is certain that the earthly throne will remain an earthly throne throughout time. If the earthly throne of David does not remain earthly in nature FOR EVER then the promise is broken and we both know that God will not break His promises.

    The Lord even says that the promises which He made to David will not be altered or changed:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    If the throne of David is changed from its original nature of being an earthly throne unto being one with a heavenly nature then the Lord did indeed “alter” the things which He promised and therefore, according to your view, that would make Him a liar.

    Some people would rather cling to their false teaching even if that false teaching makes God a liar and we both know that God cannot lie.

    Doug, repent from your false teaching. I would not want to be in your shoes at the judgment seat of Christ.

  6. November 25, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “Prophecies about Israel and Jerusalem and the land of Canaan and the throne of David, etc., applied to the earthly things, until Christ ascended to heaven, after his resurrection from the dead, when mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up in a spiritual sense.”

    According to you the throne of David changed from being an earthly throne unto being a heavenly one. You give no evidence that that is true so we must believe it because you say that it is true.

    The Scripture itself is the evidence. The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and said, ” And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” [Luke 1:31-33]

    Jesus said of Jerusalem; “for it is the city of the great King.” [Matt. 5:35] He pointed to the most prominent, and most characteristic feature of Jerusalem; it is the city where David was king, but a greater king would reign in it; Christ would be king upon the throne of David forever.

    When Peter said Jesus was “made Christ” in Acts 2:36, he was also made king on the throne of David, an eternal throne. And subsequently in Gal. 4:26 and Heb. 12:22, the apostles spoke of Jerusalem as in heaven. The throne is also in heaven. In his Acts commentary, Darrell L. Bock correctly pointed out that “The reference to the throne is not concerned with the location of a chair in heaven or on earth.” He wrote on Acts 2:30ff:

    The following language comes from Ps. 132:11 … which itself describes 2 Sam. 7:12-13 and the Davidic covenant. Acts 7:46-47 alludes to the promise as well. The specific promise is that God “would set one from the fruit of his [David’s] loins on his throne.” This is the promise that a Davidic descendant would sit on the throne of David so that his dynasty would be a fulfillment of God’s promise for God’s people. The reference in the verse to David’s throne looks to the carrying out of this rule with this authority. Peter will say that Jesus begins to fulfill this Davidic promise and messianic authority by pouring out the Spirit, as verses 32-36 declare. The reference to the throne is not concerned with the location of a chair in heaven or on earth, nor with who is ruled over, but with the function that having such a position reflects. The figure portrays the presence of a promised regal personage, the Christ, as verse 36 shows. The expression looks back to Luke 1:32, where the child Jesus is said to be given the throne of David and a kingdom that will never end.

    This kingdom is what Jesus taught about throughout his ministry, and although the promise concerns Israel, the concept focuses on the rule he brought in as a result of his first coming. Luke 11:20; 17:21b; and Acts 1:6-8 make this emphasis clear. The allusion is to the Davidic promise. Peter’s point is not that Jesus will have this throne one day sometime far in the future. In other words, the point is not that Jesus is merely appointed for the Davidic role now and qualifies for it through his resurrection and then will exercise this authority in the future, in the same way the anointing of David long preceded his actual functioning as king. Rather, Peter’s point is that the exercise of messianic authority is on display now in the Spirit’s present distribution, as verses 32-36 declare. Psalm 45:6 is a passage about the kingship of Israel at the time of Solomon and expresses the idea of the throne as a place where the divine rule functions (see also Pss. 89:14, 29, 36; 122:5, which stress the function of the rule). Every other OT text cited in this chapter is already initially fulfilled by what Jesus has done. The allusion to this psalm operates in the same way.

    The promise stretches back to its initial realization in 1 Kings 8:20, 25; 9:5, and the close connection between the throne of David (or of Israel) and God’s kingdom is expressed in 1 Chron. 17:14. In 1 Chron. 29:23 this same throne is called the Lord’s throne, showing the close connection between God and God’s king and the rule the king exercises on God’s behalf. This point of connection also appears in Ps. 2, where sonship and rule are associated.

    [Darrell L. Bock. Acts. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, Moisés Silva. Baker Academic, 2007. p. 128.]

    However, on the other hand, you continue to ignore the evidence that demonstrates that you are wrong. Let us look at the promise God made to David through Nathan:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    The throne spoken of here is the throne of David and it is an earthly throne because Solomon sat upon that throne on the earth (1 Ki.2:12).

    Since the promise to David from God says that that earthly throne will be ESTABLISHED FOR EVER then it is certain that the earthly throne will remain an earthly throne throughout time. If the earthly throne of David does not remain earthly in nature FOR EVER then the promise is broken and we both know that God will not break His promises.

    If it was an earthly throne only, then the prophecies and promises concerning it must have failed when the throne of David ceased to exist at the time of the Babylonian captivity. But originally, before Saul or David, God was the king of Israel.

    1 Samuel 12:12
    And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.

    David’s throne was actually the throne of God. The promise that it would be established forever alludes to the fact that Christ would be born of the line of David.

    The Lord even says that the promises which He made to David will not be altered or changed:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    If the throne of David is changed from its original nature of being an earthly throne unto being one with a heavenly nature then the Lord did indeed “alter” the things which He promised and therefore, according to your view, that would make Him a liar.

    Some people would rather cling to their false teaching even if that false teaching makes God a liar and we both know that God cannot lie.

    Doug, repent from your false teaching. I would not want to be in your shoes at the judgment seat of Christ.

    I think Jesus is quite pleased when people worship him as King and Lord of all, in spirit and in truth. To understand this is wisdom, and a gift of God. To deny it is darkness, and folly, and a spiritual disease or a plague, that is called blindness in Scripture.

  7. jerryshugart
    November 25, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Doug, are you really this ignorant of the Lord Jesus’ Messiahship? You said:

    “When Peter said Jesus was “made Christ” in Acts 2:36, he was also made king on the throne of David, an eternal throne.”

    Peter did not mean that it was at that time when He was made Christ because even before the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven Peter knew that He was the Christ:

    :”And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt.16:16).

    The Lord Jesus was the Christ long before He ascended into heaven but that appears to be a truth that has escaped your attention. You prove over and over that you cannot see any of the truths that contradict your little theories,.Now let us look at what you said here:

    “If it was an earthly throne only, then the prophecies and promises concerning it must have failed when the throne of David ceased to exist at the time of the Babylonian captivity.”

    No, the earthly throne of David did not ever cease to exist but instead for a while it went into a state of abeyance. According to your own view there was no one sitting on the throne of David between the Babylonian captivity until Christ supposedly began to rule from that throne when He ascended into heaven so it was never a throne which lasted For Ever:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    Of course you failed to address my point that God said that He would not ALTER the promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    If the throne of David is changed from its original nature of being an earthly throne unto being one with a heavenly nature then the Lord did indeed “alter” the things which He promised and therefore, according to your view, that would make Him a liar. Since you have no answer for this you said the following in the hope that no one would notice that you had no answer:

    “I think Jesus is quite pleased when people worship him as King and Lord of all, in spirit and in truth. To understand this is wisdom, and a gift of God. To deny it is darkness, and folly, and a spiritual disease or a plague, that is called blindness in Scripture.”

    I worship Him as Christ and as the Son of the Living God. But to deny the fact that God will not alter His promise to David is evidence of a spiritual disease, and that disease is called “unbelief.”

  8. November 25, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, are you really this ignorant of the Lord Jesus’ Messiahship? You said:

    “When Peter said Jesus was “made Christ” in Acts 2:36, he was also made king on the throne of David, an eternal throne.”

    Peter did not mean that it was at that time when He was made Christ because even before the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven Peter knew that He was the Christ:

    :”And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt.16:16).

    The Lord Jesus was the Christ long before He ascended into heaven but that appears to be a truth that has escaped your attention.

    Nonsense. This scripture has been prominent in previous responses by me and in the posts being discussed. Jesus was indeed “Christ” during his ministry and was anointed by the Spirit at his baptism. And he was also the son of God, and “king of Israel” as he was born a king. Peter said he was the Christ; Nathanael said he was the King of Israel.

    John 1:49
    Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    If you want to argue that he was already Christ, the same reasoning means he was also the king of Israel. Being Christ means he is the king of Israel who reigns in Jerusalem. It was only when Jesus ascended to heaven, that Jerusalem was raised up in a spiritual sense, and established in the top of the mountains, above the hills. The mountains in prophecy are metaphorical, and represent the promises of God. The highest mountain refers to a lofty, spiritual promise, which Christ’s heavenly kingdom fulfills.

    You prove over and over that you cannot see any of the truths that contradict your little theories,.Now let us look at what you said here:

    “If it was an earthly throne only, then the prophecies and promises concerning it must have failed when the throne of David ceased to exist at the time of the Babylonian captivity.”

    No, the earthly throne of David did not ever cease to exist but instead for a while it went into a state of abeyance.

    Hmm.. by the way, where is that?

    According to your own view there was no one sitting on the throne of David between the Babylonian captivity until Christ supposedly began to rule from that throne when He ascended into heaven so it was never a throne which lasted For Ever:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    David understood that the Lord was the real king, who reigns over all the earth. The earthly throne of David and Solomon was a type and shadow of the throne of Christ in heaven. Below are some Scriptures that say God is a king.

    Psalm 10:16
    The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.

    Psalm 22:28
    For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.

    Psalm 29:10
    The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.

    Psalm 47:2
    For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

    Psalm 95:3
    For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

    Psalm 103:19
    The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

    Isaiah wrote,

    Isaiah 6:5
    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 33:22
    For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

  9. jerryshugart
    November 25, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Of course you failed to address my point that God said that He would not ALTER the promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    The Lord’s promise to David involved an “earthly” throne:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    We can know that because Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth. But according to you God altered His promise to David because even though the promise was in regard to an earthly throne that throne was changed to a heavenly throne.

    Not only that, but you say that the throne of David did not even exist between the Babylonian captivity and the time when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven so the Lord lied to David when He promised Him that his throne SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER!

    You have so little respect for the Scriptures that you must constantly change its plain meaning and in the end you make God a liar. And then you refuse to repent!

  10. November 25, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Of course you failed to address my point that God said that He would not ALTER the promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).

    The Lord’s promise to David involved an “earthly” throne:

    ” And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    We can know that because Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth. But according to you God altered His promise to David because even though the promise was in regard to an earthly throne that throne was changed to a heavenly throne.

    I think Jesus Christ reigns as king in the heavenly Jerusalem, and he also reigns over all things, in heaven and earth. He is king of kings, and no one receives any power or authority except it is given by God. So Christ’s throne includes the land of Canaan, and the earthly Jerusalem, and the rest of the world too; not only that, he rules all things. The whole universe. And Christ’s power includes the power to fulfil his word, and cut off and destroy those Jews who do not believe in him, and that he is the promised king who reigns on the throne of David, so they are no longer Israel, or Jews, and no longer heirs of the promises; they remain in their sins, under the curse of the law.

    Acts 3:22-24
    For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    The law of God remains in effect; it is not done away; they are blind to this day. Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” [Matt. 5:17] And those who reject the words of the Scripture quoted by Peter in Acts 3:22-34 are blinded too. They cannot see that Christ is now reigning on the throne of David, and this truth will only be understood when Jesus opens their eyes. He is the one with the “key of David,” who “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;” spiritual truths are spiritually understood. Their belief in Dispensationalism makes them blind, like a spiritual plague.

    Not only that, but you say that the throne of David did not even exist between the Babylonian captivity and the time when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven so the Lord lied to David when He promised Him that his throne SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER!

    You have so little respect for the Scriptures that you must constantly change its plain meaning and in the end you make God a liar. And then you refuse to repent!

    Dispensationalists who refuse to believe Acts 3:22-24, preach another “Christ” and another “gospel.” The true gospel says that Jesus Christ reigns as king upon David’s throne in the present age. It does not say Christians need to grovel at the feet of unbelieving Jews.

  11. jerryshugart
    November 26, 2012 at 11:04 am

    As usual you just IGNOE any passages from the Bible which contradict your ideas; Of course you failed to address my point that God said that He would not ALTER the promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).
    The Lord’s promise to David involved an “earthly” throne:

    ”And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    We can know that because Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth. But according to you God altered His promise to David because even though the promise was in regard to an earthly throne that throne was changed to a heavenly throne.

    Not only that, but you say that the throne of David did not even exist between the Babylonian captivity and the time when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven so the Lord lied to David when He promised Him that his throne SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER!

    Instead of even attempting to answer the verse where God says that He will not “alter” the promise to you run off to something else in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer.

    Then on my second accusation against you you do not deny that you teach that the throne of David did not last for ever, despite the fact that God says that it will last for ever. And then you accuse dispensationalists of not believing Acts 3:22:-24 even though that is not true.

    ” For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days” (Acts 3:22-24).

    All the dispensationalists I know affirm the truth of this passage. On the other hand, we do not believe that the Lord Jesus being a “prophet” indicates that He is now sitting on the throne of David. All of the dispensationalists I know affirm the truth that God will not alter the promises which He made to David, unlike you. All of the dispensationalists I know affirm God’s promise that David’s kingdom will last for ever, unlike you.

  12. November 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    jerryshugart :

    As usual you just IGNOE any passages from the Bible which contradict your ideas; Of course you failed to address my point that God said that He would not ALTER the promise which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, NOR ALTER THE THING THAT IS GONE OUT OF MY LIPS. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I WILL NOT LIE UNTO DAVID” (Ps. 89:3,33-35).
    The Lord’s promise to David involved an “earthly” throne:

    But you only quote part of the passage. The next verse says:

    Psalm 89:36
    His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

    David referred to his throne and the throne of Solomon his son as “the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.”

    1 Chronicles 28:5
    And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

    The throne of Saul was also held in esteem by David, because he regarded Saul as the Lord’s anointed.

    Perhaps, the throne of David is associated with the sun, (1) because like the sun, it endures for all time; (2) because it is the source of spiritual light for mankind; (3) because like the sun, God’s throne is in heaven. The throne of David is also God’s throne, as God reigns over all.

    Certainly the comparison with the sun in no way supports the idea that the throne of David is only an earthly throne as you insist.

    ”And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    We can know that because Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth. But according to you God altered His promise to David because even though the promise was in regard to an earthly throne that throne was changed to a heavenly throne.

    Christ is the king who reigns on David’s throne, but he said “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    If it is not of this world, how can it be an earthly kingdom? The leaders of the Jews in the first century wanted an earthly kingdom, and when Jesus spoke of a heavenly one, they rejected him, and had him crucified.

    Not only that, but you say that the throne of David did not even exist between the Babylonian captivity and the time when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven so the Lord lied to David when He promised Him that his throne SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER!

    The Scripture says that it would “be no more, until he come whose right it is,” so from the time of Zedekiah, to the time of Jesus, it did cease.

    Ezekiel 21:26-28
    And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
    Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
    I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

    When Jesus came, and ascended to heaven, he received the throne of David, an eternal heavenly throne, in the heavenly Jerusalem. As Isaiah foretold, the mountain of the Lord’s house was established in the top of the mountains, above the hills, in heaven.

    Instead of even attempting to answer the verse where God says that He will not “alter” the promise to you run off to something else in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer.

    Then on my second accusation against you you do not deny that you teach that the throne of David did not last for ever, despite the fact that God says that it will last for ever. And then you accuse dispensationalists of not believing Acts 3:22:-24 even though that is not true.

    ” For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days” (Acts 3:22-24).

    All the dispensationalists I know affirm the truth of this passage. On the other hand, we do not believe that the Lord Jesus being a “prophet” indicates that He is now sitting on the throne of David. All of the dispensationalists I know affirm the truth that God will not alter the promises which He made to David, unlike you. All of the dispensationalists I know affirm God’s promise that David’s kingdom will last for ever, unlike you.

    If they believe Acts 3:22-24, then they blaspheme when they speak of the Jewish state in Palestine as “Israel.” The truth cuts both ways. Paul said, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” [Rom. 9:5] The Jews who reject the gospel and deny that Jesus is the Christ, who live in the Jewish state in Palestine are not “Israel,” according to Paul. But they may be “of Israel.”

  13. jerryshugart
    November 26, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Doug, you said:

    Certainly the comparison with the sun in no way supports the idea that the throne of David is only an earthly throne as you insist.

    I have already shown that Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth. Therefore it was an earthly throne and God said that he would not “alter” the promise He made to David so therefore it will remain an earthly throne. You also said:

    Christ is the king who reigns on David’s throne, but he said “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    You just ignored the fact that He said that His kingdom is not NOW of this world:

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE” (Jn.18:36).

    Perhaps you are right and the Lord Jesus was wrong when He told the disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to earth:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, as in heaven, SO IN EARTH” (Lk.11:2).

    It would not surprise me if you say that you do indeed know more than the Lord Jesus about the kingdom because you continue to insist that the Apostles were wrong for expecting that the kingdom would be restored to Israel:

    “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). If they were wrong in believing this then surely the Lord Jesus would correct them, especially since they would shortly begin preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

    However, He did not correct them, only telling them that they were not to know the time when this would happen.

    Too bad that you were not living in the first century so that you could correct the Lord Jesus and correct the Apostles. You also attempt to defend your idea that God was in error when He said that the throne of David would last for ever, saying:

    “The Scripture says that it would “be no more, until he come whose right it is,” so from the time of Zedekiah, to the time of Jesus, it did cease.”

    It would be no more because it was in abetance, not because it ceased to exist. The word “abeyance” means “a lapse in succession during which there is no person in which a title is vested…temporary inactivity.”

    Instead of being able to understand and accept this concept you would rather insist that God was wrong when He said that the throne of David would last forever. According to you it was not ever lasting because it did end.

    Doug, you think that you know more than the Lord Jesus and His Apostles but the fact is that you do not.

    “The PRIDE of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?”

  14. November 26, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    Certainly the comparison with the sun in no way supports the idea that the throne of David is only an earthly throne as you insist.

    I have already shown that Solomon sat upon the throne of David while on the earth.

    How was the throne of David like the sun? Because as the sun is the source of physical light, the throne of Christ is the source of spiritual light.

    God is the source of wisdom, and wisdom and knowledge were given to Solomon, who was a type of the Messiah, Jesus, and his reign in the heavenly Jerusalem.

    Solomon also built the temple of God, which prefigures Christ building the church in the present age, the true temple.

    Therefore it was an earthly throne and God said that he would not “alter” the promise He made to David so therefore it will remain an earthly throne.

    A wooden, literal view is not enlightened, but in this case it is one that is tailored to support dispensational delusions, and Zionist misinterpretations, and Jewish superstition. Considering other relevant Scriptures besides leads to a better understanding. Solomon’s reign was a type and a figure of the reign of Christ in many ways. Paul said, “our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” [2 Cor. 3:5-6]

    You also said:

    Christ is the king who reigns on David’s throne, but he said “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    You just ignored the fact that He said that His kingdom is not NOW of this world:

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE” (Jn.18:36).

    Perhaps you are right and the Lord Jesus was wrong when He told the disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to earth:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, as in heaven, SO IN EARTH” (Lk.11:2).

    Christ reigns as king among his saints, and he also rules the nations with a rod of iron. There is no power or authority except it is given by God.

    John 3:27
    John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

    Paul explained Christ’s glorious position in Ephesians 1:

    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    Since he has such a high office, it could hardly be a promotion if he came to earth and reigned in the earthly city of Jerusalem. That contradicts what Jesus taught in John 4, where he said Jerusalem would no longer be the place to worship God.

    John 4:21-24
    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    It would not surprise me if you say that you do indeed know more than the Lord Jesus about the kingdom because you continue to insist that the Apostles were wrong for expecting that the kingdom would be restored to Israel:

    “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). If they were wrong in believing this then surely the Lord Jesus would correct them, especially since they would shortly begin preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

    However, He did not correct them, only telling them that they were not to know the time when this would happen.

    I already explained that on this occasion the disciples had not yet received the Spirit which came on Pentecost, shortly after this. The events of Pentecost were demonstrations of Christ’s power and authority, and showed the disciples that he indeed reigns as king on the throne of David, in heaven, which is when Isaiah 2:2 was fulfilled and Jerusalem was raised up. We do not read that the apostles ever looked for an earthy kingdom after that. They were “translated” into the kingdom of Christ. Paul wrote:

    Colossians 1:12-13
    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Too bad that you were not living in the first century so that you could correct the Lord Jesus and correct the Apostles. You also attempt to defend your idea that God was in error when He said that the throne of David would last for ever, saying:

    “The Scripture says that it would “be no more, until he come whose right it is,” so from the time of Zedekiah, to the time of Jesus, it did cease.”

    It would be no more because it was in abetance, not because it ceased to exist. The word “abeyance” means “a lapse in succession during which there is no person in which a title is vested…temporary inactivity.”

    Instead of being able to understand and accept this concept you would rather insist that God was wrong when He said that the throne of David would last forever. According to you it was not ever lasting because it did end.

    Doug, you think that you know more than the Lord Jesus and His Apostles but the fact is that you do not.

    “The PRIDE of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?”

    In view of the tone of your comments above, your future responses will be moderated.

  15. jerryshugart
    November 26, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Doug, you said:

    “A wooden, literal view is not enlightened, but in this case it is one that is tailored to support dispensational delusions, and Zionist misinterpretations, and Jewish superstition.”

    Dispensations actually believe God when He says that He will not “alter” the promise which He made to David. But when we take Him at His word we are accused of using a wooden, literal view. Well, His words must mean something so if He is not saying that He will not “alter” the promise He made to David then what is He saying? You also said:

    Christ is the king who reigns on David’s throne, but he said “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    You just ignored the fact that He said that His kingdom is not NOW of this world:

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE” (Jn.18:36).

    Perhaps you are right and the Lord Jesus was wrong when He told the disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to earth:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, as in heaven, SO IN EARTH” (Lk.11:2).

    Why should we not believe that the kingdom spoken of here is in regard to an “earthly” kingdom, especially since the Lord Jesus told them to pray, “THY KINGDOM COME?”

    Thy kingdom come where? You have a bad habit of just ignoring any verse which contradicts your view and then quoting verses which have nothing at all with the verse which I brought up. of course the Lord told them to pray that the kingdom would come to earth but according to your discredited ideas the Lord said that the kingdom was not for the world. You also said:

    “I already explained that on this occasion the disciples had not yet received the Spirit which came on Pentecost, shortly after this.”

    So even though the Apostles were with Him for forty days while He discussed the things concerning the kingdom they did not even understand the most basic things about the kingdom? And when they asked Him He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time He did not even bother to correct them and instead only said that they were not to know the time.

    Either the Lord Jesus was a very poor teacher or all eleven of the Apostles were super stupid or you are wrong. How much time have you spent with the Lord Jesus in person while He spoke of the things in regard to the kingdom?

    You also continue proving that you will not believe the Bible if what is said contradicts your views. You say that the throne of David ceased to exist at one point in time despite the fact that God makes it plain that it is for ever:

    ”And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    You deny that truth but yet you can somehow trick your mind into believing that you believe everything that is written in the Bible.

  16. November 26, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “A wooden, literal view is not enlightened, but in this case it is one that is tailored to support dispensational delusions, and Zionist misinterpretations, and Jewish superstition.”

    Dispensations actually believe God when He says that He will not “alter” the promise which He made to David. But when we take Him at His word we are accused of using a wooden, literal view. Well, His words must mean something so if He is not saying that He will not “alter” the promise He made to David then what is He saying?

    Of course God does not have to alter his words. His promise to David was no different in this respect to his promise to Jacob, that he would receive the land of Canaan. Is there any place that says God had to alter what he said? But God’s words are not necessarily meant literally. Through Isaiah he says he speaks in “another tongue,” so even though his words are not altered, the plain, literal meaning may not be the true one. The words of God need to be interpreted, or else he would not have said he speaks to us in “another tongue.” The history of the throne of David shows this is true, as even though it was said to be eternal, after Zedekiah there were no more kings of the line of David, till Christ came, and it was given to him.

    You also said:

    Christ is the king who reigns on David’s throne, but he said “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    You just ignored the fact that He said that His kingdom is not NOW of this world:

    You are obviously trying to put a slant on this, adding something to the text that is not present in the English translations. But it is unconvincing.

    Jesus said he was a king, and came to “bear witness unto the truth.” He witnessed to the truth that he is the promised king who reigns upon David’s throne, now and forever.

    John 18:37
    Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE” (Jn.18:36).

    His kingdom is from above, and from the Father in heaven. Men do not make him king, God does. Dispensationalists say that when the Jews rejected Jesus, he postponed his kingdom. But in fact, Jews who rejected Jesus were rejected from Israel, destroyed from among the people; Paul said they were branches broken off from their olive tree. Dispensationalists who repeat such nonsense are blinded like broken-off unbelieving Jews.

    Perhaps you are right and the Lord Jesus was wrong when He told the disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to earth:

    “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, as in heaven, SO IN EARTH” (Lk.11:2).

    Why should we not believe that the kingdom spoken of here is in regard to an “earthly” kingdom, especially since the Lord Jesus told them to pray, “THY KINGDOM COME?”

    When a Christian prays “thy kingdom come,” it could mean he is asking Christ to reign in his own heart, in his life, and in his thoughts. Did you ever consider that?

    Thy kingdom come where? You have a bad habit of just ignoring any verse which contradicts your view and then quoting verses which have nothing at all with the verse which I brought up. of course the Lord told them to pray that the kingdom would come to earth but according to your discredited ideas the Lord said that the kingdom was not for the world.

    Isaiah said when Jerusalem and mount Zion are raised up, all nations will flow into it.

    Isaiah 2:1-2
    The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

    You also said:

    “I already explained that on this occasion the disciples had not yet received the Spirit which came on Pentecost, shortly after this.”

    So even though the Apostles were with Him for forty days while He discussed the things concerning the kingdom they did not even understand the most basic things about the kingdom? And when they asked Him He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time He did not even bother to correct them and instead only said that they were not to know the time.

    Without the gift of the Spirit, they could not understand the nature of the kingdom.

    Perhaps the same applies to dispensationalists.

    Either the Lord Jesus was a very poor teacher or all eleven of the Apostles were super stupid or you are wrong. How much time have you spent with the Lord Jesus in person while He spoke of the things in regard to the kingdom?

    You also continue proving that you will not believe the Bible if what is said contradicts your views. You say that the throne of David ceased to exist at one point in time despite the fact that God makes it plain that it is for ever:

    ”And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    You deny that truth but yet you can somehow trick your mind into believing that you believe everything that is written in the Bible.

    Jesus is the promised king who reigns upon David’s throne, and the great thing is that he is willing to share that experience with us, now and forever!

  17. November 26, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    When Isaiah wrote in Isa 28:11 “With stammering lips and another tongue will I speak unto this people” he is not talking about speaking in parables. The Apostle Paul quotes Isa 28:11

    in 1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. He is not referring to parables.

    This is quoted to correct and show that what Isa. was predicting is regarding the use of the gift of the spirit, inregards to giving a message in tongues and the interpretation will follow. The Church at Corinth misunderstood the use of the Gift of tongues. The Prophecy from Isaiah is directly to Israel, but the Church is a partaker of these promises because we accepted what Israel rejected. (the Church consists of Jews and Gentiles or “one new man” according to Eph 2)

    Paul uses this to correct the church at Corinth to use the Gifts correctly and you will be a blessing to others.

  18. November 26, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    If you have never been used in the Gift of Tongues or prophecy, it may be difficult to relate or understand. You are not going to grasp it simply by reading I Cor 12-14. I have been used in these gifts, you might have an argument but I have an experience.

  19. November 26, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    Dennis McCreery :

    … you might have an argument but I have an experience.

    But on this blog, I have the power. Your comments will be moderated.

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