Tony Garland and the Times of the Gentiles

November 17, 2012

Tony Garland is the author of a four-part series on Daniel and the Times of the Gentiles at the Bible Prophecy blog [part-1 part-2 part-3 part-4]. In part 1 he discussed the sayings of Jesus about the times of the Gentiles, in Luke 21:24, Matt. 24:15-16, and Mark 13:14. Garland asks why Jesus did not elaborate on what he meant. He suggests the reason is that Jesus expected believers to discover his meaning by studying the revelations previously given in the Old Testament. He wrote:

Where Jesus is teaching concepts which find their origin in the Old Testament, He expects His listeners to be familiar with the basis of His teachings (Mt. 21:24; 22:29; Mark 12:24; Luke 24:27; John 5:39). And so it is with this passage and its parallel passages in Matthew and Mark. In fact, both Matthew and Mark make mention of additional information provided by Jesus in the context of this same teaching which establish part of the Old Testament context for understanding all three passages in the synoptics:

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Mt. 24:15-16 cf. Mark 13:14)

This is a reasonable approach. Garland continued by discussing the history of the throne of David, which ceased when the Jews were taken into exile in Babylonian. In part 2 he discussed the prophecy of Ezekiel 21 about the throne of David, where Ezekiel says, ‘thus says the Lord GOD: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown; Nothing shall remain the same. Exalt the humble, and humble the exalted. Overthrown, overthrown, I will make it overthrown! It shall be no longer, Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him.”’ (Ezekiel 21:25-27)

Garland pointed out that the phrase, “Until He comes whose right it is” is a reference to Genesis 49:10: “The scepter (šebet) shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.”

Several New Testament scriptures are logically connected to these prophecies, but Garland failed to notice them. When the angel appeared to Mary, to inform her that she would be the mother of the saviour, he said Jesus would possess the throne of David.

Luke 1:30-33
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus was born a king. When he entered Jerusalem near the end of his earthly ministry, the people who were with him cried, “Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.” [Mark 11:10]

In his speech to the Jews on the day of Pentecost, Peter spoke of the throne of David, and said, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36) The Jews knew that if Jesus was “made Christ,” this identified him as the promised king who will reign upon David’s throne forever. All the prophecies about the Messiah were fulfilled in Him. Jerusalem was established “in the top of the mountains,” when Jesus ascended to his Father’s throne in heaven, as foretold in Isaiah 2:2. From that date, Jerusalem was the heavenly Jerusalem. [Hebrews 12:22]

In part 2 Garland wrote:

The “Times of the Gentiles” do not come to an end whenever Israel enjoys a period of relative autonomy and self-rule. The key factor which determines the period of this time is that the throne of David remains unoccupied by a legitimate ruler in the line of David.

In part 3 he added:

The continuation of the Times of the Gentiles provides additional proof that Jesus does not presently occupy the throne of David.

Garland, and other dispensationalists, miss the implications of Peter’s statement in Acts 2:36. To deny that Jesus is the Christ, is the mistake of unbelieving Jews. John wrote, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” [1 John 2:22] John’s powerful statement implies that it is a very serious offence, to deny that Jesus is the Christ. Denying that he presently occupies the throne of David comes very close to it. My advice is, be wary of those who teach such things. Eschew any teaching that brings into question the truth that Jesus is Lord of all, and reigns in the present age upon the throne of David his father, as the angel told Mary.

When Peter acknowledged Jesus is the Christ, Jesus said that this truth, which God had revealed, is the rock upon which he will build his church. [Matthew 16:18] It is the foundation stone of Christianity. Garland wrote:

Lacking an understanding of the difference between the Davidic throne based in Jerusalem ruling over Israel and the throne of the Father in heaven, we cannot make full sense of the Gospel record where Jesus arranges His fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 by riding into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey (Luke 19:30-31), presenting Himself as the promised Davidic king.

Garland admits that Jesus presented Himself as the promised Davidic king when he rode into Jerusalem, but he does not see how that relates to the heavenly throne that Jesus inherited. This is made clear by Isaiah’s prophecy about the mountain of the Lord’s house, in Isaiah 2:2. When Jesus ascended to heaven, to the throne of his Father, Jerusalem and mount Zion were also exulted above the hills, to heaven. Jesus reigns over the twelve tribes of Israel, who are those who believe in him, who are called out from all nations. Peter’s statements in Acts 2 confirm it. Garland wrote:

Zechariah indicates that the coming of this Ruler to His throne will usher in a time of worldwide peace due to His righteous global rule. But, as prophesied by many passages in the OT (including Dan. 9:26), instead of being crowned with a royal crown, Messiah was given a crown of thorns and “cut off.” In the context of Jesus’ presentation to Israel as the promised Davidic king, the response of the chief priests to Pilate are of particular significance: We have no king but Caesar! (John 19:15)

Jesus also bore the label “the king of the Jews” as he was dying on the cross. Peter said that Jews who did not believe in Christ were “destroyed from among the people.”

Acts 3:20-24
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

This is a scripture that few dispensationalists agree with. Unbelieving Jews were cut off from Israel, and were no longer “Jews,” or Israel. This must refer to their spiritual status. The circumcision of the flesh counted for nothing. The saints are the true circumcision. [Philippians 3:3]

Garland refers to the statement of Jews who rejected Christ, “We have no king but Caesar!” and stated,

With these very words, the religious leaders chose a Gentile king over their promised Davidic king and ensured the continuation of the Times of the Gentiles. Thus our age is not characterized by global peace and the throne of David remains unoccupied until Jesus returns to take up His throne and rule from Jerusalem (Isa. 9:7; Luke 1:32-33; Mt. 25:31-32).

Jesus reigns as king, and He is Lord over all things, in heaven and in earth. In Zechariah 12, those who come against Jerusalem are blinded. Since Jerusalem was raised up, when Jesus ascended to heaven, this prophecy applies to the heavenly city. “In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.” [Zechariah 12:4] Horses are symbolic of people with no understanding. [Psalm 32:9]  To say the throne of David is “unoccupied” is blindness. Jesus Christ is King, and he reigns on David’s throne forever.

Advertisements
  1. jerryshugart
    November 18, 2012 at 10:38 am

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting on His own throne but instead the throne of the Father (Rev.3:21). He will not sit upon His own throne until He returns to the earth in glory:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt. 25:31-32).

  2. November 18, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    In Acts 15, James applies a prophecy of Amos about the fallen tabernacle of David to the church. The saints are part of the tabernacle of David, because of their relationship to Christ. They are his brethren.

    In Rev. 3:7, Jesus has the “key of David.” A key is to a house as a throne is to a kingdom.

    The church is called “heavenly Jerusalem, because Jerusalem is “the city of the great King.” [Matt. 5:35] Jesus reigns there, and his saints reign with him, Rev. 1:6.

    Paul said believers have been “translated” into his kingdom. [Col. 1:13] In Rev. 19:12, Jesus has many crowns. “His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns.”

    Paul said, Christ was set at the right hand of God, “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.” [Eph:1:21-22]

    Dispensationalism tends to obscure, and belittle, and deny the reign of Christ in his heavenly kingdom. Denying Jesus’ reign upon the throne of David is blindness. Like the Pharisees, who Jesus said had been made blind, the dispensationalists have been blinded too.

    Doug

  3. jerryshugart
    November 18, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    When James appealed to the prophecies of Amos he made it plain that their fulfillment would not happen until the lord Jesus returns to the earth. He replaced the words “in that day” at Amos 9:11-12 (Septuigant) with the words “After this I will return”:

    “After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things” (Acts 15:16).

    When David became king of Israel he sought to bring the Ark of the Covenant back to the people, since that Ark was where the Lord was present. He then built a tabernacle or tent where he could place the Ark:

    “And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent” (1 Chron.15:1).

    We can understand that the “tabernacle of David” is in regard to the “throne” on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He sets up the kingdom on earth:

    “And in mercy shall the throne be established: and He shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness” (Isa.16:5).

    James certainly did not believe that the quoted prophecies from Amos had already been fulfilled because he set their fulfillment into the future when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth.

    You prove yourself unable to distinguish the throne of the Father from the throne of the Son (Rev.3:21) even though the Lord Jesus makes it plain that they are not one and the same. The Lord Jesus will not sit upon HIS throne until He returns to the earth in His glory:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

  4. November 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

    jerryshugart :

    When James appealed to the prophecies of Amos he made it plain that their fulfillment would not happen until the lord Jesus returns to the earth. He replaced the words “in that day” at Amos 9:11-12 (Septuigant) with the words “After this I will return”:

    “After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things” (Acts 15:16).

    Whether “in that day” or “after this” is correct in Amos 9:11-12 and Acts 15:16, the prophecy is all about Christ building his church in the present age. Several New Testament scriptures speak of the church as a temple. Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets are its doundation. [Eph. 2:20] The saints are called “lively stones.” [1 Peter 2:5] Some are “pillars.” [Rev. 3:12] The temple built at Jerusalem when Jews returned from exile was a type of the church in the present age.

    When David became king of Israel he sought to bring the Ark of the Covenant back to the people, since that Ark was where the Lord was present. He then built a tabernacle or tent where he could place the Ark:

    “And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent” (1 Chron.15:1).

    We can understand that the “tabernacle of David” is in regard to the “throne” on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He sets up the kingdom on earth:

    “And in mercy shall the throne be established: and He shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness” (Isa.16:5).

    Isa.16:5 refers to Jesus who is enthroned in the house of David, which is the community of his saints, gathered from all nations into his church. Paul said that the saints “sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” They have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, where Christ is king.

    James certainly did not believe that the quoted prophecies from Amos had already been fulfilled because he set their fulfillment into the future when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth.

    You prove yourself unable to distinguish the throne of the Father from the throne of the Son (Rev.3:21) even though the Lord Jesus makes it plain that they are not one and the same. The Lord Jesus will not sit upon HIS throne until He returns to the earth in His glory:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

    In the hearts of those who are wise, Jesus is already enthroned and acknowledged as king and Lord of all.

    “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” [Hebrews 1:8]

    Doug

  5. jerryshugart
    November 19, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Of course the Lord Jesus’ throne is for ever and ever and the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of His kingdom. However, that does not mean that the Lord Jesus is now ruling from David’s throne. Here is the promise made to David where we see that the kingdom in question is for ever and ever:

    “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    The “kingdom” and “throne” spoken of here were established as being “earthly” in nature and since it will last forever then common sense dictates that it will forever be an earthly kingdom and earthly throne.

    Those of us who are wise can see that the Lord Jesus distinguishes between two different thrones in the following verse:

    “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne,the “throne of David”,but instead is sitting in His Father’s throne! Please notice His words–“My throne” as contrasted with “My Father in His throne.”

    Can you not see the difference? The words “My throne” cannot possible be referring to the same throne which the Lord Jesus calls “His throne.” The Lord Jesus referred to TWO DIFFERENT THRONES but in order for you to cling to your mistaken view you must somehow trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus is referring to only “one” throne at Revelation 3:21.

    In that verse the Lord Jesus says that those who overcome will sit with Him in His throne. And we can see that His throne must be an earthly one because those who will overcome will rule on the earth:

    “And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).

    Again, the Lord Jesus will not begin to rule from the throne of David until e returns to earth in His glory:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

    The following verse demonstrates that the Lord Jesus will rule from David’s Throne in Jerusalem:

    “At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem” (Jer.3:17).

    Why would Jerusalem be called the throne of the Lord if the throne of the Lord is in heaven?

    The prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord brought him to the “land of Israel” (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a “temple” (41:1) and its “inner court” (43:5) where the Lord spoke to him:

    “And He said unto me, son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places” (Ez.43:7).

    It will be in the “land of Israel” where will be the place of the Lord Jesus’ throne, not in heaven as you imagine. In the same verse the Lord Jesus says that He will “dwell in the midst of the children of Israel”. That fits perfectly with the prophecies of Ezekiel:

    “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant…and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ez.37:25,26).

    The Lord Jesus will set His sanctuary in the midst of them and they will be dwelling in the land which God gave to Jacob. So if words have any meaning then we who are wise can underarstand that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob. That means that the Lord Jesus will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel upon the earth.

  6. November 20, 2012 at 7:14 am

    jerryshugart :

    Of course the Lord Jesus’ throne is for ever and ever and the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of His kingdom. However, that does not mean that the Lord Jesus is now ruling from David’s throne. Here is the promise made to David where we see that the kingdom in question is for ever and ever:

    “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    The “kingdom” and “throne” spoken of here were established as being “earthly” in nature and since it will last forever then common sense dictates that it will forever be an earthly kingdom and earthly throne.

    The Old Testament relates the history of the kings of Israel and Judah, and of the throne of David. The kingdom of Judea was an earthly throne. It ceased at the Babylonian captivity, but when Christ came, at the appointed time, it was given to him. Jesus was acknowledged as the promised king of Israel in several ways during his ministry. One of these occurred when he met Nathaniel.

    John 1:47-50
    Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

    Jesus’ message was about the coming of the kingdom of God, and when he was brought before Pilate he said, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” [John 18:36]

    When Jesus ascended to heaven, he received a heavenly throne, which fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” [Isa. 2:2] The “top of the mountains” is a metaphor, and it applies to the throne of Christ being exulted above all, to the throne of his Father in heaven. In heaven, Jesus reigns over all things in heaven and in earth.

    Those of us who are wise can see that the Lord Jesus distinguishes between two different thrones in the following verse:

    Jesus does the will of the Father, and there is no conflict between Christ and the Father. They share the same Spirit, and the same throne.

    “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne,the “throne of David”,but instead is sitting in His Father’s throne! Please notice His words–”My throne” as contrasted with “My Father in His throne.”

    Can you not see the difference? The words “My throne” cannot possible be referring to the same throne which the Lord Jesus calls “His throne.” The Lord Jesus referred to TWO DIFFERENT THRONES but in order for you to cling to your mistaken view you must somehow trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus is referring to only “one” throne at Revelation 3:21.

    In that verse the Lord Jesus says that those who overcome will sit with Him in His throne. And we can see that His throne must be an earthly one because those who will overcome will rule on the earth:

    “And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).

    Again, the Lord Jesus will not begin to rule from the throne of David until e returns to earth in His glory:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

    The following verse demonstrates that the Lord Jesus will rule from David’s Throne in Jerusalem:

    “At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem” (Jer.3:17).

    Why would Jerusalem be called the throne of the Lord if the throne of the Lord is in heaven?

    In Isa. 2:2 the prophet Isaiah said Jerusalem and mount Zion would be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills, but Dispensationalism fails utterly to comprehend this. The prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to heaven. That is when mount Zion was raised up, and Jerusalem became the heavenly Jerusalem. All believers come to it. [Heb. 12:22] No doubt the heavenly city is called “the throne of the Lord,” because it consists of those who are “in Christ.” Jesus Christ reigns in the hearts of those who believe in him.

    The prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord brought him to the “land of Israel” (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a “temple” (41:1) and its “inner court” (43:5) where the Lord spoke to him:

    “And He said unto me, son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places” (Ez.43:7).

    It will be in the “land of Israel” where will be the place of the Lord Jesus’ throne, not in heaven as you imagine. In the same verse the Lord Jesus says that He will “dwell in the midst of the children of Israel”. That fits perfectly with the prophecies of Ezekiel:

    “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant…and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ez.37:25,26).

    The above is a rather superficial argument, which misses most of the deep spiritual teachings in the prophecies of Ezekiel that are mentioned.

    If it is claimed that the temple described in the last eight chapters of Ezekiel is a literal one the high mountain mentioned in 40:2 is problematic, because in Zechariah 14, Jerusalem is raised up and all the surrounding land becomes a plain. There is a contradiction when the two prophecies are compared. The high mountain is comparable to the one mentioned in Revelation 21:10. Neither is literal; they allude to the lofty spiritual nature of the subjects of the prophecies, which in the case of Ezekiel is the spiritual temple, that represents the church in the present age, and in Rev. 21 is the holy city, which also represents the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.

    Ezekiel’s prophecies describe only one river flowing from Jerusalem towards the east, but the prophet Zechariah described rivers flowing towards both east and west. The prophet Joel adds a further complication by describing waters that flow from a fountain in the temple of the Lord to the valley of Shittim, across the Dead Sea and on east of Jordan! A dispensationalist claiming that Ezekiel’s temple or any of these rivers is literal has a dilemma; which of the other prophecies is not literal? If Ezekiel is literal, figurative explanations must be found for certain things described by Zechariah and Joel. If Zechariah is literal, Ezekiel and Joel must be figurative. If Joel is literal, the accounts of Ezekiel and Zechariah must be explained in a figurative way. Temple in Ezekiel is far to the north of the existing Jerusalem, but Psalm 125:1 says mount Zion cannot be removed. The prophet Isaiah said God will be around Jerusalem like “broad rivers and streams wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.” [Isa. 33:21]

    It seems that Ezekiel and Joel may have elaborated upon Isaiah’s idea. In turn, Isaiah may have alluded to one of the Psalms, “There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.” [Psa. 46:4] Obviously this river is spiritual in nature. Not only the river, but the city, and mountains, and land all have a spiritual character in prophecy.

    Some of the problems with a literal approach to the final chapters of Ezekiel were discussed by Gardiner. Interpreted spiritually as parables, the mysteries in all these prophecies vanish, and they each may be interpreted in a satisfactory way as describing conditions in the “better land,” the spiritual inheritance of the saints, of which the earthly Canaan was a type and shadow.

    The Lord Jesus will set His sanctuary in the midst of them and they will be dwelling in the land which God gave to Jacob. So if words have any meaning then we who are wise can underarstand that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob. That means that the Lord Jesus will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel upon the earth.

    In Hebrews 11, Old Testament figures such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are described as people who looked for a “better country.” [Heb. 11:16] The earthly Canaan which they were promised was a mere shadow, and a type, of far better, spiritual things. The promised land represents the heavenly, or spiritual, inheritance of the saints.

  7. jerryshugart
    November 20, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Doug, you said:

    Jesus does the will of the Father, and there is no conflict between Christ and the Father. They share the same Spirit, and the same throne.

    Yes, they share the same throne at the present time but the Lord Jesus makes it plain that the Father’s throne is not His throne:

    “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

    The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne, the “throne of David,” but instead is sitting in His Father’s throne! Please notice His words–”My throne” as contrasted with “My Father in His throne.”

    Can you not see the difference? You continue to ignore this fact, a fact that destroys your argument.

    The words “My throne” cannot possible be referring to the same throne which the Lord Jesus calls “His throne.” The Lord Jesus referred to TWO DIFFERENT THRONES but in order for you to cling to your mistaken view you must somehow trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus is referring to only “one” throne at Revelation 3:21.

    Dispensationalists have not been blinded to the truth that two thrones are in view at Revelation 3:21 but evidently you have.

  8. November 20, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    It seems to me that conclusions are being drawn from Rev. 3:21 that are unwarrented. Even if it is granted that there are two separate thrones mentioned here, it does not follow that one is in heaven, and the other in the earth.

    It is very clear in the New Testament that Jerusalem has been raised up to heaven. Paul refers to the Jerusalem which is above, Gal. 4:26. Hebrews 12:22 mentions heavenly Jerusalem. Revelation 21 contains a description of New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb.

    Jerusalem was associated with David when he captured the city and made it his capital, and ruled from there. Jesus was descended from David, and he was promised the throne of David. Jesus ascended to heaven. What could be more clear? He was made king of the heavenly Jerusalem, and reigns upon the throne of David forever. It is quite a simple truth.

    Isaiah said, “Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?” [Isaiah 66:1]

    In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, “Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.” [Matt. 5:33-36]

    He connected God’s heavenly throne with Jerusalem, which is called the throne of the Lord in Jeremiah 3:17. Clearly the heavenly Jerusalem is in view here, not the earthly one.

    Jesus is preparing the heavenly city, where he is reigning upon the throne of David. But dispensationalists want to bring him down to the level of his footstool, the earth, where they think it would be a promotion for him to rule over the earthly Jerusalem. They obviously have a rather low opinion of Christ and his present role.

    The truth is quite different, however. Jesus has inherited all the promises, including reigning upon David’s throne forever. Understanding this is light, but not believing it is darkness, and blindness. Paul wrote, “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” [2 Cor. 1:20]

  9. jerryshugart
    November 20, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Doug, you said:

    “Even if it is granted that there are two separate thrones mentioned here, it does not follow that one is in heaven, and the other in the earth. It is very clear in the New Testament that Jerusalem has been raised up to heaven.”

    You make no sense. The earthly Jerusalem has not been raised up to heaven because it remains on the earth. You also said:

    “Jesus was given the throne of his ancestor David as the angel had promised Mary, which was a heavenly throne.”

    Again you are wrong because the “throne” of David is an “earthly” throne, as evidenced by the fact that Solomon sat upon that throne while on the earth:

    “Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly” (1 Ki.2:12).

    You cannot even understand that the following verse speaks of “when” the Lord Jesus will begin to sit upon his own throne (the throne of David) because you refuse to believe that He will sit upon an “earthly” throne in the future:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

    The verse is speaking of the Lord Jesus “coming” to the earth and it will be THEN when He shall sit upon the throne of David.

    Since your eschatology has no place for an earthly throne of the Lord Jesus in the future you just close your eyes to these truths, truths which are easily understood by anyone with an open mind.

  10. November 22, 2012 at 9:13 am

    jerryshugart :

    Doug, you said:

    “Even if it is granted that there are two separate thrones mentioned here, it does not follow that one is in heaven, and the other in the earth. It is very clear in the New Testament that Jerusalem has been raised up to heaven.”

    You make no sense. The earthly Jerusalem has not been raised up to heaven because it remains on the earth.

    The earthly Jerusalem is identified with Hagar the bondwoman in Abraham’s house, in Gal. 4:25. Paul refers to it as “the Jerusalem which now is,” and with the Sinai covenant, and bondage. It contrasts with the heavenly city; “Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” [vs. 26] He said, ” Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.” Then he quoted Genesis, “Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” The dispensationalists, however, want to reverse this judgment of God.

    You also said:

    “Jesus was given the throne of his ancestor David as the angel had promised Mary, which was a heavenly throne.”

    Again you are wrong because the “throne” of David is an “earthly” throne, as evidenced by the fact that Solomon sat upon that throne while on the earth:

    “Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly” (1 Ki.2:12).

    You cannot even understand that the following verse speaks of “when” the Lord Jesus will begin to sit upon his own throne (the throne of David) because you refuse to believe that He will sit upon an “earthly” throne in the future:

    “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (Mt.25:31-32).

    In the heavenly Jerusalem, among the saints, Jesus is king, and Lord, and shepherd. This is what David’s throne, and the prophecies about the kingdom are about, although they given in parabolic language characteristic of prophecy. Dispensationalists err because they take a literal approach, where it suits their preference. Many adopt a “dumbing down” approach to prophecy, ignoring clear passages that disprove their doctrine. For example, they do not believe Peter’s statement that Jews who disbelieve in Christ are “destroyed from among the people,” Acts 3:24. They reject the statement of Jesus that worship at the earthly Jerusalem would be abolished, and something better would replace it:

    John 4:19-24
    Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    A return to bondage, and Mosaic ritual, and a religion or kingdom associated with an earthly city would be a regression, and something inferior to the worship of the true God, “in spirit and in truth.”

    The verse is speaking of the Lord Jesus “coming” to the earth and it will be THEN when He shall sit upon the throne of David.

    Since your eschatology has no place for an earthly throne of the Lord Jesus in the future you just close your eyes to these truths, truths which are easily understood by anyone with an open mind.

    To be so deluded, that one grovels at the feet of unbelieving ethnic Jews seems the opposite of “freedom” and an “open mind.”

  11. jerryshugart
    November 22, 2012 at 9:44 am

    If anyone is deluded it is you. You pretend to be an expert on the throne of David but you have been deceived into believing that the throne of David is a “heavenly” throne. You said:

    “Jesus was given the throne of his ancestor David as the angel had promised Mary, which was a heavenly throne.”

    If that throne is heavenly in nature then how was Solomon able to sit on that throne at the time when he was on earth?:

    “Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly” (1 Ki.2:12).

    To this you said:

    “Many adopt a “dumbing down” approach to prophecy, ignoring clear passages that disprove their doctrine.”

    Your explanations in regard to the OT prophecies can rightly be described as “dumbing down,” not mine. For instance, even though the prophecies reveal that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob you are able to trick your mind into believing that that land is in heaven. Nothing can be as dumb as that.

    Anyone who has actually read the Bible knows that the land which God gave to Jacob is on the earth but since that does not fit your mistaken ideas you assert that that land is in heaven.:

    The prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord brought him to the “land of Israel” (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a “temple” (41:1) and its “inner court” (43:5) where the Lord spoke to him:

    “And He said unto me, son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places” (Ez.43:7).

    It will be in the “land of Israel” where will be the place of the Lord Jesus’ throne, not in heaven as you imagine. In the same verse the Lord Jesus says that He will “dwell in the midst of the children of Israel”. That fits perfectly with the prophecies of Ezekiel:
    “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant…and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ez.37:25,26).

    The Lord Jesus will set His sanctuary in the midst of them and they will be dwelling in the land which God gave to Jacob. So if words have any meaning then we who are wise can underarstand that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob. That means that the Lord Jesus will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel upon the earth.

    Since those plain words do not fit the fables which you teach you just assert that the land which God gave Jacob is land which is in heaven. And then you have the nerve to attack those who say that the land which God gave Jacob is land which is on earth and say that they are dumbing down the OT prophecies.

  12. November 22, 2012 at 11:27 am

    jerryshugart :

    If anyone is deluded it is you. You pretend to be an expert on the throne of David but you have been deceived into believing that the throne of David is a “heavenly” throne. You said:

    “Jesus was given the throne of his ancestor David as the angel had promised Mary, which was a heavenly throne.”

    If that throne is heavenly in nature then how was Solomon able to sit on that throne at the time when he was on earth?:

    “Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly” (1 Ki.2:12).

    The problem is that you have ignored Isaiah’s prophecy, about the mountain of the Lord’s house, which Jesus represents. He identified himself as the temple of God. He is also the foundation stone laid in Zion, that Isaiah spoke of.

    Isaiah 28:15
    Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Jesus is identified with the “corner stone” in the New Testament. Peter said to the Jews:

    Acts 4:10-12
    Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
    This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    In Isaiah 2:2, which is about Jerusalem, and mount Zion, the mountain of the Lord’s house is established in the top of the mountains, above the hills. This was fulfilled, when Jesus ascended to heaven, and to his Father, where he was given the throne of David which he had been promised. Paul said, “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” [2 Cor. 1:20] The throne of David was one of the foremost promises Christ was to receive; he could hardly be “made Christ” unless he possessed the throne of David. And Peter said he was “made Christ.” [Acts 2:36]

    Jesus said, that to be a king, was the very reason he was born.

    John 18:37
    Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    It is rather foolish, and impious, to deny that Jesus reigns as Christ, and Lord of all, and that he reigns on the throne of David, IMO.

    To this you said:

    “Many adopt a “dumbing down” approach to prophecy, ignoring clear passages that disprove their doctrine.”

    Your explanations in regard to the OT prophecies can rightly be described as “dumbing down,” not mine. For instance, even though the prophecies reveal that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob you are able to trick your mind into believing that that land is in heaven. Nothing can be as dumb as that.

    Anyone who has actually read the Bible knows that the land which God gave to Jacob is on the earth but since that does not fit your mistaken ideas you assert that that land is in heaven.:

    Paul tells Christians to think of things above, where the saints are promised a better land, a heavenly one. [Heb. 11:16] He said,

    Colossians 3:2
    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

    He was deeply grieved over those who scorned and sneered at their heavenly spiritual inheritance, and preferred earthly things.

    Philippians 3:18-20
    (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
    Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
    For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Those who are snared in earthly political movements and Zionism, which includes many dispensationalists, are called “adulterers” in scripture. James said,

    James 4:4
    Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    The prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord brought him to the “land of Israel” (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a “temple” (41:1) and its “inner court” (43:5) where the Lord spoke to him:

    The high mountain Ezekiel described is not a real one, but a figure. It is similar to the high mountain from which John described the heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21:10. Both mountains are visionary and indicate the subjects described have a lofty, spiritual meaning. And the mountain Ezekiel mentions is not mount Zion, as the visionary temple Ezekiel described was in another location, to the north of the existing Jerusalem. The location is illustrated in the map image here.

    “And He said unto me, son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places” (Ez.43:7).

    It will be in the “land of Israel” where will be the place of the Lord Jesus’ throne, not in heaven as you imagine. In the same verse the Lord Jesus says that He will “dwell in the midst of the children of Israel”. That fits perfectly with the prophecies of Ezekiel:
    “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant…and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore” (Ez.37:25,26).

    The Lord Jesus will set His sanctuary in the midst of them and they will be dwelling in the land which God gave to Jacob. So if words have any meaning then we who are wise can underarstand that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land which God gave to Jacob. That means that the Lord Jesus will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel upon the earth.

    Since those plain words do not fit the fables which you teach you just assert that the land which God gave Jacob is land which is in heaven. And then you have the nerve to attack those who say that the land which God gave Jacob is land which is on earth and say that they are dumbing down the OT prophecies.

    Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [John 3:3] The Jews who wanted Jesus crucified wanted an earthly, visible kingdom, not a spiritual, heavenly one. That is why they rejected him. And so Scripture says they were blinded, and were cut off from Israel. They were no longer Jews, or Israel, according to Acts 3:23. But dispensationalism denies this; they say when Jews rejected the message of the apostles, Christ “postponed” his kingdom. What nonsense! It was Jews who were rejected. They became branches broken off from their olive tree. [Rom. 11:17] What a shame when Christians follow the error of unbelieving Jews.

  13. jerryshugart
    November 22, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Let us look at you remarks to what I said here:

    The prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord brought him to the “land of Israel” (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a “temple” (41:1) and its “inner court” (43:5) where the Lord spoke to him:

    To this you say:

    “The high mountain Ezekiel described is not a real one, but a figure. It is similar to the high mountain from which John described the heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21:10.”

    According to your mistaken view despite the fact that Ezekiel was taken to the “land of Israel” the things which he saw there were not in the land of Israel at all but instead in heaven. This is the worse case of nightmare exegesis I have ever seen. You prove over and over that you are willing to throw your reason to the wind in order to cling to your mistaken ideas. You do the same thing in regard to the land which God gave to Jacob. Despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will dwell with the children of Israel in the land God gave Jacob you refuse to believe it. Instead, you say:

    Paul tells Christians to think of things above, where the saints are promised a better land, a heavenly one. [Heb. 11:16]

    Yes, but Paul does not say that the heavenly land is the same land which God gave Jacob. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Bible knows that the land God gave to Jacob is land that exists upon the earth and not in heaven.

    Those of us who have received the Spirit can understand these simple things do not call the throne of David a heavenly throne since Solomon sat in that throne on earth:

    “Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly” (1 Ki.2:12).

    According to your mistaken idea the throne of David changed from being an “earthly” throne to a “heavenly” one despite the fact that God said that He would not alter the promises which He made to David. Here is one of those promises:

    “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David” (2 Sam.7:16-17).

    The throne was established as an “earthly” throne and the Lord said that He would not alter any of the promises which He made to David:

    “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David” (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    The Lord says that He will not “alter the things that have gone out of” His lips regarding the promises that He made to David.Therefore it is certain that in the future the throne of David will be an earthly one and the Lord Jesus will rule from that earthly throne.

  14. January 10, 2013 at 12:10 am

    The whole question is involved in the position that the Old Testament prophets prophesied of and talked to the church. Doug, you really know how to muddy the waters by throwing terms around as if they are referring to the same thing.

    There are many spiritual principles and promises that are similar between Israel and the Church. But each will be fulfilled in their own time. The Idea that the nation (12 tribes) of Israel ceased to exist with the Babylonian captivity is folly. Listen to the Prophet Jeremiah:

    “33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

    24 Considerest thou not what this people (this is you Doug!) have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

    25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

    26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.”

    You have no scriptural authority to eliminate Israel just to justify your doctrinal position. I hesitate to give you long reading of scripture, I would rather mention the reference only, but from my reading of your false doctrinal position, if I just gave the reference your answer would be a perversion of the True Biblical position. So Listen to the Apostle Paul, he agrees fully with Jeremiah.

    Romans 11:1* ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2* God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    3* Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4* But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    5* Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6* And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7* What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    8* (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    9* And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

    10* Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

    11* I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    12* Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    13* For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

    14* If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    15* For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    16* For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    17* And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    18* Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    19* Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

    20* Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    21* For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    22* Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    23* And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    24* For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    25* For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26* And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27* For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28* As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    29* For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    The Church of Rome (which you have not seen before) consists of Jewish and Gentile believers. The Jewish believers had about 1500 years of one system, Jesus through his Death, Burial, and Resurrection brought in a brand new system. The Apostle Paul called it a Dispensation. He was trying in the first 11 chapters to explain to the Jewish Christians what the new Dispensation consisted of and how the Gentiles and the Jews are now one body. Proof: Romans 2 Paul writing to the Jewish Christians said “Thou are a Jew…”

    He speaks predominately to the Jewish element in the First 11 chapters. That is why he said at the end of Chapter 2

    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29* But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    3:1* ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    2* Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    Now Paul here says the Jews were “committed the oracles of God.” He is not talking about the Church but the Jew, the nation of Israel. In chapter 9 he mentions “Israel” 3 or 4 times contrasting “Israel with what the Gentiles (who are now in the church have received)

    To me spending all this space trying to prove to you that the term Jew, Jacob, Israel. etc. is never referred to as the church is unbelievable that is needs to be done. Anyone with rudamentry understanding of the Bible knows that Israel is Israel and the Church is The Church.Your perversion is anti-semetic doctrine it is but never in the Bible.

    When ever Paul says Israel or Jew, particularally in the Book of Romans he is speaking to the Jewish element in a church which has both Jews and Gentiles in it.

    After he gets to Romans chaptee 11 the Apostle paul says “Now I speak to you Gentiles”

    Who, might I ask was he talking to in the first 11 chapters? Why The Jewish Element of that Church predominately.

  1. No trackbacks yet.
Comments are closed.